Andy J - 10 August 2009 02:39 PM

No, it is not a deflection, you evidently have a problem with the information posted, SO, YOU, explain WHY it is incorrect..

It should be easy, it even lists page numbers…..

So this is going to be the playground argument——no you do it;  no you do it.  If its that easy, do you know where I can find a website with the bill itself?  It lists the pages but doesn’t give a link to where to actually find a copy of the bill.  I’ve been looking for that.  I would like to see it for myself to attempt to make a decision rather than listen to the right or the left.

After doing some research, I found a politifact website that goes thru some of the items.  Here is an excerpt of that article…

“It may be the longest chain e-mail we’ve ever received. A page-by-page analysis of the House health care bill argues that reform will end the health care system as we know it: “Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! ... Page 42: The ‘Health Choices Commissioner’ will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. ... Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services.“

Most of what the e-mail says is wrong. In fact, it’s a clearinghouse of bad information circulating around the Web about proposed health care changes, so we thought it would be helpful to address a bunch of its claims.

To check this e-mail, we read the health care bill ourselves. Yes, it’s over 1,000 pages long, but that’s not as long as you might think: The document has large margins, so the text only takes up about one third of each page.

We also read the bill’s legislative summary, a report published by the House that explains the bill in greater detail.

Finally, we consulted with Jennifer Tolbert, an independent health care analyst at the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan foundation that studies health care reform. Tolbert has read and analyzed all the major health proposals, including those of the Republicans, and the foundation provides point-by-point analyses of the plans on its Web site.

We’re hardened, battle-scarred fact-checkers, so false claims in e-mails don’t really surprise us anymore. But we sent Tolbert a copy of the latest from our in-box, and she was none too pleased.

“It’s awful,“ she said. “It’s flat-out, blatant lies. It’s unbelievable to me how they can claim to reference the legislation and then make claims that are blatantly false.“”

The link is http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/30/e-mail-analysis-health-bill-needs-check-/

The email that I received several days ago reads “Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - your healthcare will be rationed.

HR 3200 reads “(A) ANNUAL LIMITATION.—The cost-sharing incurred under the essential benefits package with respect to an individual (or family) for a year does not exceed the applicable level specified in subparagraph (B).
(B) APPLICABLE LEVEL.—The applicable level specified in this subparagraph for Y1 is $5,000 for an individual and $10,000 for a family. Such levels shall be increased (rounded to the nearest $100) for each subsequent year by the annual percentage increase in the Consumer Price Index (United States city average) applicable to such year.“

My question:  Does anyone actually expect the bill to read “healthcare will be rationed?“  If so, I’m sorry to be the one say it but, that someone would be a complete idiot. 

Liberty U has made their interpretation.

link to HR 3200:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

Andy j, after researching and finding your source I see why you did not want to
list it.  When I go to the liberty site I find that the very first line is a distortion, the
fact is stated on line #2.  This is actually only a look at the House bill HR3200,
what about the other 4, 5 or more proposed bills????

If you look at “Truth” sites they tell you that this CHAIN email fails the smell test.

I found this link that gives the text of bill h956 introduced in the House of Representatives on February 10, 2009.  The bill referenced in the previous post was introduced in 2007. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h956/text

fromtheslide - 08 August 2009 02:11 PM

I believe that the fact is if you like your insurance you keep it.

I am also happy with the insurance coverage I have, so I will keep it.

Yes, it’s true that if you like your insurance you can keep it….BUT, you won’t get it pre-tax anymore. So, depending on what your premium is, it could even put you in a new tax bracket. What I see happening here is the government making it so that you can’t afford to keep your existing coverage…in essence, forcing everyone to take the gov’t coverage.

On a slightly different note…how come whenever people (on either side, but more prevalent on one side) want to shove legislation down everyone else’s throats, they always use “the children” as the justification? I’ll tell ya why…because if anyone dares to disagree with the proposal, then they are painted as being heartless “because the CHILDREN suffer.“

This healthcare reform is not about healthcare at all.  The Dems have even threatened to pass it in the dead of night.  If their ideas for reform were so good and full of real solutions, then they’d wait and offer their plan during next year’s campaign.  A thorough healthcare reform proposal would solidify Dem power in the next Congress.

But, the Dems proposals are about tyranny, not care hence the need to ram it down America’s throat.

“because the CHILDREN suffer.“ Is this in reference to what EX-governor Palin said about her child?

Nope, it has nothing to do with Palin. I’m not even familiar with “what she said about her child.“ It’s more of a general reference to how some people try to justify things by using “the children.“ I don’t care which side of the aisle they’re on…it’s annoying.

I’m amazed at what I am reading and hearing about health care reform….as if any of us know what we’re talking about!!!  I think it’s great to have a discussion about what we would and would not like to see in the way of health INSURANCE reform, as that is what this is about.  No one could deny we need reform, unless they work for insurance companies who are now spending 1.4 million dollars PER DAY to lobby congress to drop this whole idea.  There is not A BILL ready to be acted on, so now is the time to talk to your representative about what you do and do not want included in this reform.  There are many proposals on the table, but no bill is prepared yet to vote on.  Make your wishes known to your representative.

kbcd, I’m all for reform. Unfortunately, not ONE member of Congress or the Administration has even hinted about true reform. Sure, they throw the word “reform” around, but the President has made it abundantly clear that the only solution he supports is gov’t sponsored health care. So, unfortunately, speaking to our Senators or Reps (who all happen to be in the same party as the current President) is about as effective as telling my 5 year old to do my taxes this year. Each and every one of them are going to vote along party lines. Please feel free to quote me on this. I have personally had several rounds of correspondence with our representatives in both houses and have received nothing more than a reply telling me how much they “care” about their constituents…but are not about to consider anything I’ve said.

Here’s an idea….how about we go back to the days where the doctor would come to your house and you would negotiate the fee with him/her directly? I wouldn’t even have a problem with the current setup of going to the doc’s office, as long as there are no other parties doing the negotiating. Then we wouldn’t have all the middlemen in the way and health care would be affordable for everyone. Why do you think politicians don’t advocate MSA’s? Could it be because the insurance companies have so many of them from BOTH sides of the aisle in their pocket?

Several on this thread have discounted the “longest chain e-mail” ever known to mankind; an overview of HR3200 by section and page.

e-mail:
• Sec. 123, Pg. 30 - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get.

HR3200:
11 SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
12 (a) ESTABLISHMENT.—
13 (1) IN GENERAL.—There is established a pri
14vate-public advisory committee which shall be a
15 panel of medical and other experts to be known as
16 the Health Benefits Advisory Committee to rec
17ommend covered benefits and essential, enhanced,
18 and premium plans.

email:
• Sec. 163, Pg. 58-59 beginning at line 5 - Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID health care card will be issued!

HR3200:
5 ‘‘(D) enable the real-time (or near real
6time) determination of an individual’s financial
7 responsibility at the point of service and, to the
8 extent possible, prior to service, including
9 whether the individual is eligible for a specific
10 service with a specific physician at a specific fa
11cility, which may include utilization of a ma
12chine-readable health plan beneficiary identi
13fication card;

email:
• Sec. 1156, Pg. 317-318, Lines 21-25, 1-3 - “PROHIBITION on Expansion of Facility Capacity.“ The government will mandate that hospitals cannot expand (“number of operating rooms or beds”).

HR3200:
21 ‘‘(C) PROHIBITION ON EXPANSION OF FA
22CILITY CAPACITY.—Except as provided in para
23graph (2), the number of operating rooms, pro
24cedure rooms, or beds of the hospital at any
25 time on or after the date of the enactment of
PAGE318
1 this subsection are no greater than the number
2 of operating rooms, procedure rooms, or beds,
3 respectively, as of such date.

email:
• Sec. 1233, Pg. 430 - The government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life, according to preset methods (not individually decided).

HR3200:
PAGE430
4 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara
5graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat
6ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
7 interventions.

email:
• Sec. 1401, Pg. 503, Lines 21-25 - The “Center” will collect data both “published and unpublished” (that means public & your private information).

HR3200:
19 ‘‘(B) DATA COLLECTION.—In order to
20 carry out its functions, the Center shall—
21 ‘‘(i) utilize existing information, both
22 published and unpublished, where possible,
23 collected and assessed either by its own
24 staff or under other arrangements made in
25 accordance with this section,

These are just a few examples of the FACTUAL nature of Liberty U’s overview.  I got tired of trying to discredit the email.

Have you ever read your current policy?  I’m betting it reads very similarly….except you have given that power (to decide which procedures it will cover) to the insurance company rather than the government.  ALL insurance MUST have parameters around what is covered/not covered, and businesses (hospitals, medical services/suppliers) must have ways to know they will be paid for their services. We need to rein in the cost of the services, making them equitable for all who seek service.

It pays to know who the President’s advisors are.  They will be executing the legislation.

And what happens when we enter a real financial crisis like that coming down the pike related to debt, inflation, higher unemployment, etc? 

I just don’t trust this administration one little speck.  Obama is the son that Lenin wished he’d had.  Obama’s and his advisor’s bios read like a who’s who of Marxist ideology.

we need to take care of our OWN Children first…

Are harsh as it sounds, we can’t be the worlds “free hospital”

We must take care of our own first

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I am not for illegal immigration but I am not against it either. My negatives weigh out my positives. Do you think this is a good thesis? Immigrants who cross our borders illegally arise many problems in the US including rising cost of healthcare,
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